Would you buy a brand new Citroen DS (according to the original design) for US$45,000 if it was updated with better crash safety, power, and reliability?
Thursday, August 24, 2006
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Would you buy a brand new Citroen DS (according to the original design) for US$45,000 if it was updated with better crash safety, power, and reliability?
18 comments:
if i had that much at hand, why, yes!
You'd also have to give it the charm and qualities that made the original great. Do that, with some improvements, and I would say yes.
In a heartbeat, but it'd be a difficult prospect to upgrade the DS/ID and keeping its mojo intact. It would most definitely lose its one-spoke steering wheel (due to considerations for an airbag) and I'm not a fan of Hydractive III with its electonics galore.
It's a shame that like the other design classics (Citroen 2CV, VW Beetle and The Mini) the Citroen DS did not continue production elsewhere, usually South America.
Anyways I'm an avid follower of your project, I'm hoping to get a DS soon (a much easier prospect in Australia).
What are the key mojo elements? Obviously: body shape, front wheel drive, hydropneumatic suspension (rising up at start), single spoke steering wheel, and couch-like seats.
But what about the pressure sensitive push button brakes? The chassis structure is very vulnerable to a side impact accident.
Since the car was not unit-body construction, it would not be that hard to build a new chassis with more robust accident strength and then clad it with the original body parts. All one would need to do is locate the suspension pickups and body mounting points in similar locations. It seems like one could use a high-torque turbo-diesel engine.
I have two concerns about the original brakes. First, the brakes fail when any other part of the complex hydro system fails. I learned this about a mile from home the first time I drove mine. Mine had so much leakback that it would only stand up for a mile. Once it settled I had no brakes. Fortunately there was no traffic. I think the brakes need to be on their own separate circuit. A purist will say I should have known to stop before it settled all the way down. But I think that brakes are an important enough part of a car that they should just work all the time, no matter what. Second, the front brakes are inboard and attached to the wheels by half shafts. I understand this is good because a) it decreases the unsprung weight of the wheel and b) it allows a center-point pivot for steering rather than an offset pivot. (I'm not convinced that center-point steering is worth much, however). But, I remember a number of big accidents when inboard brakes were used in auto racing - including the one that killed Jochen Rindt. A half-shaft would snap and suddenly one wheel would have no brake - sending the car into a wild spin or veering sharply to the opposite side.
An '01 A8 replaced a '71 DS here, mainly for crash safety reasons. It would be great to have back the DS's:
- comfort over long trips
- profound stability
- complete separation of suspension movement from steering action (including a lack of roll steer which matters for cornering precision and crosswind stability)
- high speed lane changes with subcentimeter precisions even when done abruptly
- sharp linear brakes
- ability to feel approaching loss of cornering grip as lightness in the minimally damped force-linear steering even when driving fast over bumps (one of the things that center point steering is good for, another being no torque steer even if one wheel spins).
Can't say I miss the tractor engine, though it lasts.
I wouldn't mind active roll cancellation to keep the zero camber change suspension from reducing cornering grip. But the active antiroll should be driven by the differential pressure on the steering power piston, then scaled according to the weight and height of the cars load, so as to never fight bumps but only be compensating for cornering induced roll.
I'd also buy a Ford Five Hundred if it had the comfort and steering qualities of a DS along with the modern crashworthiness. It's about the feel not the look.
A successor really in the spirit of the DS wouldn't look much like one, since fifty years of progress in materials, structural analysis, and the occasional microprocessor probably allows better ways to meet the same calm rational goals as guided the DS's development.
Thanks for the comment.
My experience is limited because I've never driven or ridden in a properly funtioning DS.
I'd answered the question earlier as if it were hypothetical. If you're actually thinking of producing such cars, it seems like there are two primary audiences: those mainly into the styling but less concerned with whether it steers and rides exactly like the original, and those who like all the old systems but wouldn't mind a quieter, more powerful engine and modern side impact protection.
You have a lot of latitude if the first group is your audience, but if you want to appeal to those who like how the DS feels over its entire handling regime, then the focus might best be limited to improving the engine and crash protection.
Regarding the brake pressure source, on cars later than yours, the front brakes became independent of suspension height, and have such a priority that only a few turns of the starter from zero pressure are enough to clamp the calipers. DS models also have a separate checkvalved accumulator for at least the front brakes. And the DS models' foot emergency brake if adjusted correctly is good enough for stopping from freeway speeds on a downhill exit ramp (I tried out of curiosity, not necessity). If the accumulator(s) are maintained (charged with nitrogen or replaced every several years), you are very unlikely to be suddenly without brakes, but drivers must understand that braking ultimately comes from a turning engine and fluid in the single reservoir.
Anyway, good luck with the hot rod. I'm sure if you turn up at a Citroen event with it, you'll be able to trade rides in it for rides in more ordinary examples.
If it looked like your vehicle...the answer is yes!
(Awesome job on the DS!!)
If I could get a new DS for $US45,000, I'd do it in a heart beat. :-)
Until then second hand is the only option. :-(
By the way, I've enjoyed following your mods. Whilst I am a purist at heart, your project is very interesting.
My answer is Yes, so I own a C6... and i use my DS just for a go on sunday mornig to buy newspaper.
It´s a crime to re-built a DS like in the pics, just like re-paint Leornardo´s Mona Lisa with sparay... but it´s yours... nothing more to say.
I would buy it maybe, if it would have at least the innovations of the DS, but I would not pay it for a downgraded DS, which losed part of its innovation to be replaced by horsepower. I am sure, it will be fun to drive, but you built it and you probably like it most.
Keep the hydraulics and use a 3.0 V6 of the XM and you are closer where most people like this car to be. And if you really want to go American style, make it at least a lowrider, give the car a suspension it deserves.
Furthermore a lot of admiration for what I see. The dash I would have kept closer to the model II, I love the wheels although I would have chosen a more closed and smoother design, closer to the Pallas hubcaps idea.
You have a lot of courage to do all this. Building a car from scratch is much easier. Especially when you choose this car, which I do not really understand... any change to this car is a possible loss of its Mojo, as someone called it. This is a very difficult car to redesign and make it acceptable for other ID/DS lovers.
If I would be you... I would go for a modern Maserati-engine, a classic looking dash with lots of meters like some luxury versions had, keep the one-spoke steering wheel, even if you dont have an airbag then... and mount a nice hifi... Becker has a new model of classic looking head unit with, incl. navi, MP3 etc....
But I am sure yours is a beauty, just dont take it to European Citroen exhibitions, most people will hate it. Take it to general tuning exhibitions and people will love it.
Keep up the good work, I am following your progress...
Henry
Yes a new DS would be around this price. As the late LJK Setright stated in one of his last writings, most all DS bits have been copied, excluding the skinny roof pillars in the past 50 years.
It is a shame you have not driven one in proper condition, othewise you would not have changed so many technical elements of the car and (please do not take this the wrong way, I can tell you have put a ton of time, effort and $$$ into this car, and it shows!) backdated it in such a manner. Mustang II front end to replace the double wishbone suspension? Rear wheel drive? A V8 motor to replace an overbuilt 4 cylinder hemi?
Your brake fears are not justified, the only time I have ever had braking problmes in any Citroen was when the main accumulator developed a slow leak in a D Special and put nitrogen into the system, the car still stopped, but with a slight delay. The inboard comments are correct, but the loss of a halfshaft would be a rare event. A friend did loose on in a DS, but not at speed.
If you really wanted to hotrod one of these, such changes like I made on my D Special of Weber carbs and a four branch header would be a start, but then some motor mods. Citroen had a DOHC head in the works for the car.... Bosch D-Jetronic came to the car in Europe, so annother mod could have been made there. Going in this direction that would have preserved the car and its technical merits Vs. making what is technically a 1960s Chevrolet in DS skin.
The concern about the inboard brakes is irrational, i've had it on two of my cars and never suffered a broken driveshaft.
I have never heard of a broken driveshaft on passenger cars, leading to an accident.
The reasons for using them are:
The leading suspension arms will not act as a lift bar due to torque of the braking. The torque is transferred to the gearbox mounts.
The inboard brakes gives more room for steering pivots.
They save unsprung mass..
Hi there. I've been reading this story with great pleasure. I think you did a very nice job. I don't own 45.000$, but I got my own DSuper5 and that's enough for me. Maybe I would spend that amount of money on a new one, but I think I'd rather buy an original one(without extra safety and power). I don't think people on European Citroen exhibitions will hate this car. I would love to meet your car in person. May be you could ship her and bring her to CitroMobile 2007 (http://www.citromobile.nl/) in Holland?
Hi, i'am french but i don't like the french car. Je roule tous les jours avec une Olds Cutlass Ciera SL V6 3.3L de 1990. J'aime beaucoup votre travail sur la DS mais je n'aime pas du tout la DS elle-même, je préfère beaucoup une Cuda' 440 ou une Charger 426 Hemi de 1969.
@+ Duke.
I became stricken with the DS in 1957 when I saw a Corgi 1956 DS19 at the department store. My mother bought it for me, which as I recall was about $2.50 (like $25+ now?). Tootsietoy cars were 10¢ each!
The DS' shape is rather aerodynamically efficient despite the windshield inset in a rubber gasket, flat side glass, and the pronounced brow that runs around the roof. That said, such an extreme shape is not necessary with the much advanced understanding of automotive aerodynamics since 1955, or even 1967 (the Opron-revised headlights).
The platform frame became too expensive to produce, being composed of a large number of simple shapes spot-welded together. The lack of side impact strength is well known.
Having the fenders and doors hung, and the fiberglass roof fastened on the skeleton frame makes the car all too prone to shedding the body in crashes.
An acquaintance had a half-shaft inner joint come loose without warning. It thrashed about in the passage in the front frame, wrecking the frame. As the brake disc is on the same studs as the CV joint, it came loose and yanked the parking brake caliper out of the bellhousing, thus destroying the transaxle (the bellhousing is machined in assembly with the gearbox).
Certainly there is no place for a driver's air bag in the DS single spoke wheel, but the SM had a single spoke wheel that could have held an air bag. So for the CX wheel.
@anon... Wow.
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